Corporal Robert B. Stafford, U.S. Marine Corps, was called as a witness by the prosecution, was sworn, and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Captain Hur:.

Q. Corporal Stafford, would you please state your full name for the record?

A. Robert [withheld] Stafford.

Q. And what is your current unit, Corporal?

A. I am with Weapons Field Training Battalion, Parris Island, South Carolina.

Q. And how long have you been with that unit?

A. About six months, sir.

Q. And before that unit, what was your unit?

A. 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, Kilo Company.

Q. How long were you with 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, Kilo Company?

A. About three-and-a-half years, sir.

Q. And what was your billet with them?

A. The last billet I had was squad leader in Assault Section. The billet I had before that was Kilo Company Armory Custodian. And the billet I had before that was Assault Team Leader.

Q. Were you deployed with 3/1 to Haditha, Iraq, in the fall of 2005?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was your billet while you were deployed to Iraq?

A. That was when I was Kilo Company Armory Custodian, sir.

Q. Can you describe what the job function of that billet is?

A. Mainly dealing with day-to-day maintenance of weapons for the entire Company. Everything from the M-16, 240 Gulfs, 50 Cals, pretty much, any type of weapons that the Company itself would have, I just made sure that they weren't broken. If it was something that I wasn't allowed to fix, I would take it up to higher echelon maintenance, that sort of thing, sir.

Q. Did you have any role with regards to weapons capture from the enemy?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What role did you have?

A. Whenever weapons were captured, whoever was leading that unit, the senior Marine from that squad or that team most of the time squads, would go out on patrol. So they would bring those weapons back. Any weapons they found necessary for the Iraqis not to have, bring them back and when they gave them to me, I would catalog them and put them in the captured weapons locker, log them down in the logbook, and whenever I had a chance to make a Dam run, which was a run to the Dam. I would take captured weapons up there, give the weapons to the Battalion, and then somewhere in that process, S-2 would check them out and they would either be destroyed, or I'm not exactly sure what they would do with them.

Q. Now, when you say have a chance to turn them in to the Battalion Armor, how often would that chance typically arrive while you were with Kilo Company?

A. Every week to two weeks, sir. It would just depend on whenever I could actually get on a Dam run. I had responsibilities there, and like, we -- well, like, when I would make my RAR run, I would take weapons up there with me to get fixed and also turn in captured weapons.

Q. How did you document captured weapons from your perspective?

A. There's yellow tags. Normally these tags are used formal functioning and broken weapons. Well, what Battalion instructed us Company custodians to do was to label where it was captured, when it was captured, and the capturing unit, and I would tie that on there. Also logged that into a logbook, just like a regular green duty logbook, and I would lock them up.

Q. Are you aware that the Battalion also kept log records for these weapons?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is your knowledge about that?

A. For the most part, I would bring the weapons in, they would count up how many there were and take any serial numbers off of the particular weapon it was, and it was their's after that. But I know they kept a logbook.

Q. Did you ever see the log at the Battalion Maintenance?

A. I had seen it once or twice, yes, sir.

Q. Now, are you aware generally of the charges that Lance Corporal Sharratt currently faces?

A. I am familiar with -- slightly familiar, but not totally.

Q. Are you aware the day in question that bring us to this hearing today?

A. Yes.

Q. What day was that?

A. The day that Lance Corporal Terrazas died when he hit the IED and the fire fight that ensued.

Q. If I told you that took place in 19 November, would that seem reasonable to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever make it out to the IED site where Lance Corporal Terrazas died on 19 November?

A. Yes, sir. I was with a react squad under Corporal Billsky.

Q. What time of day was it when you got out there?

A. Early afternoon, mid-afternoon, something like that, sir.

Q. And when you got out there in the afternoon, what was your function of being out there?

A. I was -- I had originally been tasked to go out with Corporal Billsky. We went out there and we set up security, and I guess our initial task was to just be security. But once higher got there, which would have been the Company Commander, we were instructed to start removing the bodies out of the particular houses and whatnot. That is when I took one of the HMMWV's over there and started removing the bodies out of the first house I went into.

Q. So aside from being security and removing the bodies, did you have any other role while you were out there?

A. Any captured weapons or whatnot that would have been given to me, that sort of thing, and there were some that were given to me that day, too.

Q. How many captured weapons were given to you?

A. I received two that day.

Q. Do you recall where you were when you received these captured weapons?

A. The first one was the first house I went to, it was on the same side of the street as the taxi. I got one AK there, and then another one later on when we actually moved over to find the taxi cab to get the people out of there.

Q. So you received both weapons on the same side of the road?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you receive any ammunition with these weapons?

A. I received magazines, but there wasn't any ammunition in them anymore.

Q. How many magazines did you receive?

A. One for each AK, sir.

Q. So you received two AK-47 magazines, and two AK-47 weapons?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And no ammunition?

A. No, sir.

Q. We will discuss the matter of seizing the AK's and the magazines in a moment, but I want to ask you, did you discuss at all that day with Lance Corporal Sharratt about what had happened?

A. We, myself and Lance Corporal Sharratt and Corporal Billsky and few other Marines, had talked a little bit when we were out there on the street before we had started moving bodies, yes, sir.

Q. What did Lance Corporal Sharratt tell you about what had happened that day?

A. Well, we had talked about, first of all, what happened -- exactly happened with Lance Corporal Terrazas, how the IED had detonated and blown up the vehicle. They had seen the trigger man flee, fired at him, followed him in the direction that he had fled. And that once they had started clearing houses, his SAW had jammed. He had to get a pistol from Doc so that he could continue on at that particular moment.

Q. When you say "Doc", who is that?

A. Doc Whit. I am not clear on whether he was an HM or an HM-3.

Q. So after Lance Corporal Sharratt received this pistol from Doc, what did Lance Corporal Sharratt say that he did next?

A. That he continued to clear houses. Eventually, when they moved, I don't remember the specifics, but he eventually said that he had to go get the 240 to clear another house.

Q. What did Lance Corporal Sharratt say that he did with the 240 Gulf?

A. He cleared the house with it, sir.

Q. Did he describe how he cleared the house with it?

A. You know, kind of, shot down the door, that sort of thing when they made entry.

Q. Did you see any evidence that a 240 Gulf had been fired?

A. There were impact rounds on the second house that I went to in order to start clearing bodies out. It was nighttime. We had some light so that the Marines inside -- most of the bodies were already taken out by the time that I got there. But when we were putting them in the back of the HMMWV, we were, kind of, stacking them in the back of the HMMWV. So we had to have some light so that we could see what we were doing, and there were impact marks on the building.

Q. Did you see any brass from a 240 Gulf that day?

A. Not to my recollection.

Q. Now, as an Armorer, are you familiar with what 240 brass looks like?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What about AK-47 brass?

A. Yes, sir, the same thing, sir. I know -- AK-47 and 240 brass are about the same, I guess, in circular diameter. But AK rounds are shorter that 240.

Q. Significantly shorter?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But they are the same width?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do they both look very different from the 556 casing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How so?

A. 556 is much smaller and skinnier, I guess. If I had to make an educated assumption it's about as thick as a cigarette, maybe. Maybe a little bit more, but not too much. It's the same thing.

Q. Did Lance Corporal Sharratt say anything to you that day about having to assault the houses Fallujah style?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, what did he specifically say?

A. Fallujah style was pretty much, just how we did it when we were there. He had to go in, and some people had to throw in frags, that sort of thing. And you know, it was kind of a run and gun type of situation.

Q. Were you at Fallujah?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it mean anything to you when Lance Corporal Sharratt told you he assaulted houses Fallujah style?

A. I understood his meaning by it.

Q. What did it mean?

A. Just what I was saying before. You assume the threat was there, you had to kick in the door, you had to go in there and clear it like the people inside that building were in it.

Q. Had your Company been getting any guidance on that day on how to deal with enemy coming from houses?

A. We had classes before, yes, sir.

Q. Was assaulting houses Fallujah style consistent with that training and guidance?

A. As Marines, we are always instructed that in any event that we feel that our life or any other Marine's life isin danger, we don't hesitate to protect ourselves or other Marines. So I mean that might have been how they felt, but I don't know. I wasn't there.

Q. Did Lance Corporal Sharratt say anything about actions with regards to Staff Sergeant Wuterich that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did he say?

A. Staff Sergeant Wuterich was apparently, when the taxicab was coming down, they were coming down and approaching them pretty fast. They were told to stop and whatnot, but they weren't, kind of, listening to them. A guy got out, looked like he was a threat, said that they thought he had an AK, and Staff Sergeant Wuterich, kind of, took a knee and just pulled the trigger and laid the guy out.

Q. Did Lance Corporal Sharratt say anything else with regards to actions by Staff Sergeant Wuterich that day?

A. Not about Staff Sergeant Wuterich?

Q. At any time, did anybody from the prosecution, the defense, or NCIS make any promises to you with regards to your testimony?

A. No, sir.

Q. What about any threats?

A. No, sir.

Q. Has anybody told you what to say, other than to tell the truth?

A. No, sir.

Q. Let me review my notes please. Do you recall that you gave a sworn statement to NCIS on 15 May 2006?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your memory fresher then or now?

A. It was a lot fresher then, sir.

Q. Do you recall saying in your statement that Lance Corporal Sharratt had told you that he took the 240 on his hip and sprayed the house, and also cleared the house with his nine millimeter?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And everything you said in your statement was true and correct, to the best of your knowledge?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall having any conversations with Lieutenant Kallop about weapons seized from the IED sites that day?

A. It wasn't what I would call a conversation, but he did make a comment to me.

Q. What comment did he make?

A. After he had -- he had said to me kind of in passing on the way to COC, and looked like I guess he was coming from that way, he asked me if I had gotten the other AK's and I asked him my whole assumption and that was the two that I received were the only two. I said well, I got the two, and he was like, never mind, and didn't say anything else.

Q. Is it correct when you said in your statement quote, "the reason I worried about this comment was because of something that Lance Corporal Sharratt said about Lieutenant Kallop. Lance Corporal Sharratt told me that Lieutenant Kallop moved AK's from the areas of houses three and four to the areas of houses one and two.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Lance Corporal Sharratt told you that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If I were to mention Lance Corporal Sharratt having a conversation with you about C-4, would you know what I am talking about?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Lance Corporal Sharratt discuss with you regarding C-4 while at the IED site?

A. When I first got there and I was getting the big picture about exactly what happened, he had mentioned to me and asked me if I had any C-4 on me. I am an Assaultman, and my billet -- well, my actual MOS is Rocket Trained Demolitions, and in Fallujah, I had blown up a lot of buildings in combat and outside of combat. He just asked me if I had any on me. He kind of made an off-hand reference to the fact that he might have to blow some of these buildings up or something like that.

Q. Now, this conversation took place after you had cleared some of the bodies out of the houses. Correct?

A. That was before, sir.

Q. Before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So after the conversation, you cleared the bodies then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when you cleared some of the bodies, you observed that women and children had been killed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did that conversation with Lance Corporal Sharratt regarding C-4 and needing to blow up one of the houses, have any different meaning for you when you observed that women and children were killed?

A. Not at that time. It wasn't until later that I actually started thinking about most of what I had seen, what I talked about with others, and I kind of had my assumptions, but --

Q. What were your assumptions regarding that conversation?

CC[Mr. Culp]: Objection, sir. This is not relevant.

IO: I will allow him to answer this, but I'm getting lost on what this has to do with house number four.

TC[Capt Hur]: Yes, sir. These are conversations that Lance Corporal Sharratt said about what happened that day. His context and state of mind to Lance Corporal Sharratt which is relevant to the underlying offenses, sir.

IO: Well, I am going to allow you some latitude. I am not so sure on relevance.

TC[Capt Hur]: I will move it along, sir.

IO: He can answer the question, unless you don't want him to.

TC[Capt Hur]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Captain Hur continued:

Q. Please answer the question, Corporal, if you understood it.

A. If indeed something -- if what I had assumed might have happened, happened, that would be a reason to blow up some of the houses.

Q. And Lance Corporal Sharratt specifically asked you for C-4 in order to blow up one of the houses?

A. He asked me if I had any. He said that we might need to, or something like that. But he never asked for it for him.

Q. Now, do you recall hearing a conversation at the smoke pit while you were talking with the Doc?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was discussed in this conversation?

A. I was standing there talking to Doc Dokes, and I overheard somebody in another group having a hushed conversation, probably not intended for my audience, but about the fact that this AK was put here and this AK was put there, that sort of thing. And it kind of mixed in with the same sort of thing that I heard about Lieutenant Kallop.

Q. Was Lance Corporal Sharratt part of that group discussing this?

A. I do not know.

TC[Capt Hur]: Please give me a moment while I review my notes.

Questions by Captain Hur continued:

Q. Lance Corporal Sharratt specifically told you that day that he had used a nine millimeter, specifically, to clear houses?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall in one of your interviews with me before that you said that Lance Corporal Sharratt had "John Wayne'd" it?

A. Yes, I said that, sir.

Q. What did you mean by "John Wayne'd" it?

A. On-the-go, sort of. You know, just taking initiative, that sort of thing, sir. Just, kind of, at random, getting what he had to get to continue on.

Q. You were pretty good friends with Lance Corporal Sharratt before this matter came to hearing, correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You take no pleasure in testifying today?

A. No, sir.

TC[Capt Hur]: I told you that I would get back to the AK-47's, and I will. With the Court's permission, may I approach the witness with what has been previously introduced as Investigative Exhibit 49.

IO: I am not a Court.

TC[Capt Hur]: With the Investigative Officer's permission. My apologies, sir.

Government counsel delivered the document to the witness.

Questions by the Captain Hur continued:

Q. Do you see where I have tagged it in two different places?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On the first tag, would you please read the fourth paragraph?

A. Neither the 3/1 captured weapons log, nor the 3/1on-hand captured weapons log showed that any weapons were seized and turned in on the 19th of November 2005.

TC[Capt Hur]: Would you please turn to the other tagged -- you know what: I think I may have mis-tagged it.

IO: Why don't you just tell him what it is?

TC[Capt Hur]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Captain Hur continued:

Q. Well, would you please turn, Corporal Stafford, to the date December 2005. Specifically, I am actually looking for what has been marked as AK-47's as November 21st, 2005, and that would be the fifth page in.

A. Okay. On the 21st, sir?

Q. Right. On page four of the items November 21st, to the end of the November 21st, items 138 through 150?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On the page in front of you.

A. Yes, it is, sir.

Q. Is it true, then, that in your memory there was no weapons turned in by yourself to the Battalion on November 19th?

A. No, sir. We didn't take them back with us on the 19th, sir, at least I didn't.

Q. What about the 20th?

A. The soonest after that incident, I believe it was a week, maybe even two weeks, after that before I actually returned any weapons.

Q. So the November 21st weapons turned in would not necessarily have been from November 19?

A. No, sir.

Q. When would the November 19 two AK-47's have been turned in, according to the log?

A. It would have been on my next run, the next available run. I don't know. I really have no idea when my next run was, but I didn't make a run that night. I didn't go to the Dam that night.

Q. When you said you did not, who else could have made a run to the Dam that would be in possession of captured enemy weapons?

A. The other only person that was authorized to take captured enemy weapons was our Company Gunnery Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap.

Q. So would it be to your knowledge, then, that neither yourself or Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap obtained weapons seized from the IED sight that day other than those two you already told us about, and there would have been no other weapons seized and turned in?

A. There shouldn't have been, sir. Earlier in the deployment, I had problems with people in the platoons or squads just taking them back before we had seriously sat down and told everybody, hey, any captured weapons come here. So I catalog them, and S-2 can check them out, and Battalion do with them as they may. But to my knowledge, I received two weapons that day. I cataloged them, I put them in the weapons locker, and I took them with, probably, several other weapons.

Q. And by the 19th of November, the policy was firmly established, that it would be either yourself or Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap turning in enemy weapons?

A. Yes, sir.

TC[Capt Hur]: One moment, please. Sir, may I approach the witness with what has been previously marked as Investigative Exhibit 49?

IO: Sure.

TC[Capt Hur]: I am withdrawing Exhibit 49 from the witness. I am giving the witness a pen to mark the Exhibit 69.

IO: Well, it is a copy of 69. You don't have the original.

TC[Capt Hur]: Yes, a copy of 69, sir.

Questions by Captain Hur continued:

Q. Corporal Stafford, I don't mean to stand so close to you, but you discussed earlier today houses one and two?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you please mark on the map where you were when you received the first AK-47?

A. Yes, sir.

The witness did as directed.

Q. And will you please identify that with a "1"? And would you please indicate on the map where you received the second AK-47?

A. Yes, sir.

The witness did as directed.

Q. You will notice on the map that there's a compass on the bottom that says where North and South are. Do you recognize the map?

A. The IEDs are there. I made a mistake.

Q. Do you recognize the map?

A. Slightly, sir. It is a lot different from our map -- our actual map. I mean, not that much different, but just looking at it, again, I just had to make sure where I was. Where is --

Q. Do you see a little yellow spot on the map.

A. That is where the IED went off. We were there on -- as far as where the taxi was?

Q. Why don't you mark on there where you think the taxi was?

A. Because if that's where the taxi was, I was at one of these houses.

TC[Capt Hur]: The witness marked the taxi on the map.

IO: All right. This is very difficult for me to follow on what you are doing there and marking. On that map, you received the two AK-47's south of the main road that runs downhill. Is that correct?

WIT[Cpl Stafford]: Yes, sir.

IO: Unless there is something particular about the exact place on the land where you got it, I understand that you didn't receive it outside of house number four. Is that what you are trying to show me?

CC[Mr. Culp]: And just to verify, he said that he received them at house number one and two.

IO: Hold on for a second.

TC[Capt Hur]: The government is not going to be entering what the witness just drew on into evidence, sir.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Can we see where he marked?

IO: Let's just finish the questions. We will take a break, and you can look at that if you think you have to follow up.

TC[Capt Hur]: The government has no further questions at this time. The defense and the Investigating Officer may.

IO: Very well. We will take a break, and I want you to explain to Mr. Culp what was marked on that, because no one else knows because you had a private conversation there.

The Article 32 investigation recessed at 1048, 13 June 2007.

The Article 32 investigation was called to order at 1059,13 June 2007.

IO: This hearing is called to order. Mr. Culp, you may examine the witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Culp:

Q. Corporal, I'd like to begin by handing you what is marked as Investigative Exhibit 69. Could you do me a favor and please explain to me what the scratchings is up on Viper Road, which is the road that intersects Chestnut going North. Who made that mark there?

A. That was me, sir.

Q. What did you mean by that mark?

A. Originally, when I had been asked the question, I was looking at the map. I wasn't paying attention. Well, totally oriented on what I was looking at, at first, and I realize I was wrong. So I was just trying to orient myself off of where the IED happened and where the taxi cab was.

Q. Okay. Do you understand what the name of the road is that runs from East to West on that map?

A. Off the top of my head, it was Chestnut.

Q. Do you know where on that map houses one and two are?

A. Well, looking at that, that says "house four." So one and two would be down here.

Q. He has pointed to half way down road Zebra, at the right of the house that's located in the middle of that road -- right off to the right at the middle part of that road. So do you know exactly where houses one and two are?

A. From this map, no.

Q. Can you please mark with an "A" where you were when you received the first weapon?

A. Yes, sir.

The witness did as directed.

IO: Okay. And to make it clear, that is not Investigative Exhibit 69, it's a copy. I have the original, and no one asked for it.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. And then please mark with a big "B" where you received the second AK-47.

A. Yes, sir.

The witness did as directed.

CC[Mr. Culp]: I'm retrieving the exhibit and handing it to the Investigating Officer, and that will now be Investigative Exhibit --

IO: This is going to be marked as Investigative Exhibit 95, and that will be the next one in order. I think we are up to 95, now.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. So from that map, you didn't really understand where houses one and two were exactly?

A. Not at first, no, sir.

Q. And you were pretty close to the road when you received those weapon, Chestnut?

A. The first time when we turned down the road, I stopped the vehicle and backed up so we could start loading bodies in. That's when I received the first one. The second one I received later on and it was in the evening, and it was night time. When we had moved over by the taxi, that's when I got the second one.

Q. Did everybody in the Company and in the Platoon specifically understand who you were and what your job was and that you were the Armorer?

A. Everybody knew that I was the Armorer.

Q. And you received these weapons, these AK-47's at two different times?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. About what time was it when you received the first one?

A. The first one was in the late evening, because that's when we had finally moved over to start removing bodies.

Q. What time was that?

A. Late evening being, maybe 1700.

Q. And the second one?

A. The second one, it was definitely at night. It could have been anywhere from between say, 2100 to probably 2230.

Q. Now, if you were on the scene, did it make sense to you that someone was seeking you out to give you the AK-47's, given that you are the Armorer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So if they were located in house three or four, would it have made sense to bring you the AK-47 wherever you were, because you were the Armorer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. They were located further south down where houses one and two, the same thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you have no idea where those two weapons came from?

A. Where the two particular weapons came from, well, I assumed the first one came out of the house that we were clearing out. The second one, I didn't know where it came from exactly, no, but I knew the incident.

Q. Let's go back and then I will ask the question again, without assumptions: You do not know where those two AK-47's came from?

A. No, sir.

Q. You do not know when they were turned in to the Haditha Dam?

A. No, sir.

Q. NCIS had to go to you and ask you for some sort – let me stop. Given that you personally, the Armorer, got two AK-47's from this general scene?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. NCIS had to ask you for the logs or the records that would indicate when those two AK-47's made their way to the dam?

A. They asked me about it not until I was already out of the country, already back here in the States in the May time frame. The logs and whatnot were changed over with the unit that we changed over with when we left.

Q. You testified on direct that those two weapons didn't go to the dam in December?

A. That those weapon --

Q. Those two AK-47's that you recovered were part of the weapons that were taken to Haditha Dam on 19 December?

A. On 19 December?

Q. The weapons log in December, what the exact date?

A. Sir?

IO: Well, the question he was asked had to do with November. You throwing out December is different, and is causing confusion.

The questions was he didn't turn any weapons in on 19 November, and there is something about 21 November where he said he didn't think the rifles was part of that.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. You don't know when those weapons were turned in the Haditha Dam?

A. I do not know the exact date that they were turned in at that Dam. I know it wasn't the 19th of November.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I didn't make a run the 19th of November. The only run that was made on that evening to the dam was the run to take all of the male bodies to the dam, and then a run that was made to take all of the female and children -- child bodies to the hospital.

Q. So you know that those weapons made their way back toFirm Base Sparta?

A. I know the two that I had in my person -- with my person, after I received them at the scene came back to Firm Base Sparta, yes, sir.

Q. And you have no records of where they went after that?

A. Those two were put in a locker with the rest of the captured weapons. Everyone of the other captured weapons that I had that ever came to me got placed in the captured weapons locker. Now, myself and Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap had access to that locker. When ever I had a chance to make a run to the dam, I would take whatever captured weapons we had back to the dam. Now, I don't know what next time the exact day was to make it back to the dam.

Q. You are the Armorer, right, Corporal?

A. Yes.

Q. You have no -- this is a question.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It only requires a yes or no. Do you or do you not have any records, any paper log of any type, that indicates what happened to those two weapons?

A. Yes. It would have been in my logbook. If you know the exact serial number, and you gave me my logbook, I can match the serial number up with the logbook and tell you the exact day. I don't know. It's been almost two years since I was --

Q. Didn't NCIS ask you for the log of what happened to those weapons?

A. Yes, they did, sir.

Q. Did you give it to them?

A. No, it wasn't in my -- I didn't have it. We changed other with a different unit while we were in Iraq. When we changed over, we gave them all our logbooks for captured weapons. Any logbooks that I had for my particular weapons, we would have brought back. But then again, I was also ADVON. So another armory custodian was in Iraq when they did the change over.

Q. So what you are saying is there should be a log, it should be somewhere, but you don't have any specific knowledge of it?

A. I know that it was my log, and I had the logbook; but once I left Iraq and there was another Armorer, I don't know.

Discovery 27 Jul 0700371

Q. Let's talk about TJ's -- Lance Corporal Terrazas' weapon. What happened to that weapon?

A. That weapon got trashed. We had to take it back. The only thing that still good on it was the upper receiver and they rebuilt it.

Q. When did you receive that?

A. That evening.

Q. From whom?

A. I don't remember, sir.

Q. How did you transport it back?

A. It would have made it back with me on one of the runs, sir.

Q. In one of the vehicles?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you put that rifle back together?

A. I did not, sir, the Battalion -- the higher echelon maintenance did.

Q. It was put back together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Let's talk about the smoke pit for a second.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You heard someone talking about AK-47's at the smoke pit?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was it?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. And what exactly did they say?

A. What they were talking about was that -- what I overheard was that this AK was put here, this AK was put there. Nothing about the situation or a time period. I just assumed that those two things were coincided with one another.

Q. When was this conversation at the smoke pit?

A. Probably about a week, two weeks after the fact.

Q. Is it possible that two people were tying to figure out where the weapons went?

A. Sure, sir.

Q. Is it possible it had nothing to do with any sort of conspiracy or a cover up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was your testimony on direct regarding what LanceCorporal Sharratt asked you for in regards to C-4?

A. What do you mean on --

Q. Did he ask you for C-4?

A. Yes, sir. He asked me about if I had any C-4 on my person. He didn't ask for any for his personal use, no.

Q. So he did not ask you for some C-4?

A. He didn't asked me for it for his personal use. He asked me if I had C-4 in the event that we had to blow up some buildings.

Q. Did he ever ask you to blow up the building?

A. No, not directly. It was just a "what if" scenario, sir.

Q. How about indirectly? Did he ask you to blow up a building indirectly?

A. He asked me if I had any C-4 in the event that I might have to blow a building up, or something like that.

Q. And did he have any other conversations with you regarding this house?

A. Regarding?

Q. This house that he wants to blow up?

A. No, sir. It was a generalized question, sir. It wasn't specific.

Q. Okay. So my point is, he never talked to you – he never asked you to blow up a house, specifically?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was a hypothetical "do you have it in case," question?

IO: I just want to make it clear; you asked a question that required a yes answer, or do you agree with it. He said, "no," but I believe his "no" was agreeing that he was never asked to blow up a house. So to make it clear, Lance Corporal Sharratt never asked you to specifically blow up any house. Is that correct?

WIT[Cpl Stafford]: Yes, sir.

IO: Thank you. If you read that back, you'll see the opposite of what he thought it was.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. Was there ever an out house, some out house type construct at Firm Base Sparta where AK-47's were maintained?

A. That was the captured weapons locker.

Q. When did that weapons locker start to be locked and have accountability?

A. It was probable about before -- we were a month – a month in the country before we actually erected a door and set it up as the specific weapons storage locker.

Q. Even after there was a door on it, was the lock put on there immediately?

A. No, not at first, sir.

Q. Okay. When did you arrive in Haditha?

A. We arrived in Haditha, I believe October time frame.

Q. And when did Firm Base Sparta -- when was that established?

A. Just about the same time we got there. We were up at the dam for about a week before we made the push through the city. And the same -- as soon as we were done with the push, we had choose the school to stay in at first, and then they decided to make it a permanent firm base.

Q. Give me -- give the Investigating Officer an on or about date that you moved in to Firm Base Sparta?

A. The exact date, I don't know.

Q. On or about, I asked.

A. The 15th.

Q. Of October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And about a month after you were there, you constructed -- there was an out house and you put a door on it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So from about 15 October to about 15 November, you would just put AK-47's in this out house type structure without a door?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you put a door on it, and how long after you put the door on it before somebody started to lock the door?

A. I'm not sure, sir. I don't know.

Q. Could it have been a month?

A. No, sir. It wasn't that long, sir. We got the door, then we had to go back up to the dam to get a lock. It wasn't a lengthy period of time, no, sir.

Q. If Lieutenant Kallop remembers that at this time, 19 November, that the collection of AK-47's at the outhouse was just a loose hodgepodge and there was no real accountability of them, would he be wrong?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because you were the Armorer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you know better?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because you were responsible for the accountability of those AK-47s?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were accountable for a lot more than AK-47's as the unit Armorer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Night vision goggles?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. M-16's and M-4's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you ever disciplined in Iraq because you didn't do a very good job in Iraq of maintaining accountability of those type of things?

A. There was a problem at one point in time, I believe it was in December, about a pair of 7-B's going missing. I was never disciplined for it because it was found that it wasn't my fault. It was somebody else in a different platoon's fault for misplacing them, and then having them stolen by another Marine.

Q. So you had to empty out the armory, the place where you maintained all of the equipment?

A. Excuse me, sir?

Q. Were you responsible for finding them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Lance Corporal Sharratt never said that he made up a story to you, did he?

A. Excuse me, sir?

Q. Lance Corporal Sharratt never told you that he or anybody else had come up with some story to tell if there was an investigation?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did NCIS first ask you about the AK-47's that you had personally taken possession of?

A. Some time in May, once I was back in country.

Q. And you told them then that you knew when those two weapons were taken to the Haditha Dam?

A. I told them that I knew about when. I told them I didn't know the exact date.

Q. Isn't it true that as far as captured enemy weapons were concerned, nobody was very concerned about AK-47's?

A. For the most part, no, sir.

Q. RPG's, those type of things, a lot of accountability was paid -- attention was paid to the accountability of those things?

A. The warheads, and whatnot -- I mean, all of the weapons were accounted for so that they could be taken back to be destroyed. But the munitions were, obviously, a little more important in the whole realm of safety and whatnot, as opposed to the not functional – the launcher isn't functional without the warhead.

Q. If there was no accountability for those two AK-47s, no logbook, no indication of when they made it down to Haditha Dam, that would not reflect well upon you as the unit armor, would it?

A. It wouldn't.

Q. Did you ever share the key to the outhouse, the AK-47outhouse if you will, with anybody?

A. The key was between myself and Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap.

Q. Did you ever give the key to anybody else to put weapons there?

A. No, sir.

Q. No Marine ever received a key from you to that AK-47 outhouse?

A. Not from me, no, sir.

Q. Weapons could have been taken from the AK-47 out house by Staff Sergeant Ornelias?

A. Who?

Q. Who the other person that had the key?

A. Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap.

Q. Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap. Did an Ornelias ever get a key from you?

A. Ornelias had access to that before, about the first month we were there, and then it was decided that it was my responsibility.

Q. Okay. So there was a point in time that someone besides you and Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap had the key to the outhouse?

A. That was actually before it was locked up.

Q. So everybody had access to that out house before it was locked up, didn't they?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So what's the significance of Ornelias having access, and then it was given to you, if everybody had access before the door was put on.

A. Ornelias was supposed to be directly in charge as the Assistant Police Sergeant of that and all of our ammunition that we stored in the other side of this outhouse. He did a pretty good job of taking care of that side, but the other side was, kind of, not paid as much attention to. So then it was turned over to me, because Battalion, you know, obviously needed these weapons to be cataloged, and whatnot.

Q. As far as evidence, some sort of evidence as to when this lock was put on the out house on the door of the out house, the only evidence that you really have as to when that happened is in your head?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the end of the day on 19 November, did you ever have an occasion to hear -- over hear a conversation between Lance Corporal --

A cellular telephone rings.

CC[Mr. Myers]: You have my apologies. I can't understand how it's on.

IO: I think you'll probably have to repeat that question because, I don't remember it.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

Questions by Mr. Culp continued:

Q. At the end -- in the evening of 19 November 2005, did you ever have the occasion to over hear conversations between Lance Corporal Prentice and Lance Corporal Sharratt?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Do you ever remember seeing those two individual talk?

A. Yeah, they've talked before. They are friends.

Q. Do you have a specific memory of those two individuals talking that evening in your presence?

A. No, not in the later part of the evening after everything was said and done, but while we were on the street.

Q. During the daytime?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But in the evening, no.

A. No.

Q. Did NCIS ever ask you whether or not you over heard a conversation between Lance Corporal Prentice and Lance Corporal Sharratt?

A. They very well could have. I don't remember.

Q. You just don't remember?

A. No, sir.

Q. If you weren't around after this outhouse was locked up, after the time period that it was required to be locked up, what would happen if somebody needed to turn in an AK-47 and you weren't there?

A. They were supposed to go to Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap, and Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap would have dealt with it.

Q. And he would make entries into a log?

A. He was suppose to.

Q. The log that you don't have?

A. The log that I do not have.

Q. Do you always do what you are supposed to do in regards to being the Unit Armorer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never made any mistakes?

A. Everybody makes mistakes, sir, but none that I can think of.

Q. Were AK-47's ever placed into that outhouse, even after the lock up period, and they were not placed into the log?

A. I had a problem with that initially, because Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap would take them and put them in there, because he didn't know that they needed to be put in the logbook. He had a lot of stuff on his mind. I had mentioned it to him. I don't know what happened there. I ended up going through all the weapons that was in there and re-log them or make sure that they were logged.

Q. At least the ones that were left in the outhouse and hadn't been taken to the dam?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap begin his duties as the Assistant Armorer, or access to the outhouse person?

A. Whenever I actually started being in charge of it, because whenever I would go in I didn't have an assistant. So therefore, he would take care of things for me.

Q. So it was a Corporal or Lance Corporal Ornelious?

A. He was a Lance Corporal.

Q. Lance Corporal Ornelious initially had responsibility for this for some time. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you take over responsibility from Lance Corporal Ornelious?

A. Shortly after I got to -- I got to Firm Base Sparta, maybe, two or three weeks after we had been there for a little while and started building up the firm base.

Q. So now we are in sometime in the early part or the middle part of November?

A. Late October, maybe early November.

Q. When you took over, Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap he became the other person who had access to the outhouse?

A. Yes, sir. There was one other person that had access to the out house that had access to the armory, the outhouse and whatnot, and that's the Company Ordinance Officer. That would have been the Executive Officer, Lieutenant Mathes; but I see no reason for him to be involved with anything.

Q. When you took over the outhouse, was there a door on it then?

A. When I took over, we had the door in place; the lock was not yet placed on it, no.

Q. And you said that Gunnery Sergeant Dunlap, even after a lock was placed on it, you had some problems with him not always logging the weapons into the logbook?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. So in the beginning part or the later part of October, the earlier part of November, you take over the outhouse; then it has a door, but no lock. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you said some time passed, a couple of weeks, before you put a lock on it?

IO: All right. He didn't say that, Mr. Culp. I am so far afield why this is important to my investigation. So maybe you can clue me in, or you can talk to him off-line if you want to keep going down this line.

There were two weapons recovered, they were brought back, and NCIS doesn't have them. There was a lock on the thing, there may not be a lock on it, I'm lost.

I am giving you a lot of leash here, but tell me why I care if there was a lock on that two days after, four days after -- we don't have the weapons that were seized, but I have statements from just about every witness that was there that there was two weapon seized from the home, and a third one taken later.

CC[Mr. Culp]: Well, I had hoped, sir, that you got it.

IO: Well, I can -- you don't have to sledge hammer me. I got it a long time ago. Can we move on to something else, please?

CC[Mr. Culp]: Yes, sir.

IO: Thanks.

CC[Mr. Culp]: No further questions, sir.

IO: Thanks. I don't mean to cut you off on other relevant areas.

CC[Mr. Culp]: I'm not trying to convince anybody but you, sir.

IO: All right. Well, I just have a couple of questions for you.

EXAMINATION BY THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER

Questions by the investigating officer:

Q. From what you over heard, you believe that the twoAK-47's you recovered on 19 November may have come from some place other than the home that you were outside of, or in the location where you were?

A. From what I over heard, yes.

Q. Okay. But at the time you received them, you assumed they came from the house that you were in front of?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And now you are not sure, because it sounds, like, based on the conversations the AK-47's may have been moved from their original location?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Bottom line is, you remember having two AK-47's and transporting them back, and you don't know what happened to them after they were locked up?

A. Yes, sir. I know that they were looked up, like, if I knew if I can find those -- sorry, sir.

Q. I'm not asking you to track them down. And I just want to go back to when you said that Lance Corporal Sharratt was telling you that he had used his 240 Gulf in hip-fire mode in order to clear a room.

A. In order to clear the front -- clear the house, and I remember specifically about the door, but not about any specifics about any rooms.

Q. Okay. So he fired at a lock and opened up the door with his 240 Gulf, right?

A. That would have been the intent, yes, sir.

Q. But you didn't believe that he had taken it from his hip, went into a room, and cleared a room spraying the room?

A. No, sir.

Q. And tactically, would that be a good way to employ a 240 Gulf from the hip to clear a room? Can you control it really well?

A. No, sir.

Q. So it sounded more like someone talking about Rambo, than about something he actually did?

A. Yes, sir.

IO: Captain Hur, you asked to see Investigative Exhibit 95.

TC[Capt Hur]: Thank you, sir.

IO: Any follow up?

TC[Capt Hur]: Yes, just a few, sir.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Captain Hur:

Q. Corporal Stafford, it was Lance Corporal Sharratt, himself, that told you that Lieutenant Kallop had moved the AK-47's from house three and four, to houses one and two. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

TC[Capt Hur]: Thank you. That is all.

IO: Recross?

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Culp:

Q. You knew Lance Corporal Sharratt to be somebody who exaggerated?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he liked to brag?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he liked to tell sea stories?

A. Yes, sir.

CC[Mr. Culp]: No further questions, sir.

IO: Corporal Stafford, are you scheduled to deploy, or have any plans to be out of the area over the next few months?

WIT[Cpl Stafford]: I'm stationed in South Carolina, but as far as that, I am there for the next year and a half, whether I like it or not, sir.

IO: So there is no reason to believe if that you won't be available if you are called to testify in any further proceedings?

WIT[Cpl Stafford]: No, sir.

IO: Thank you for your testimony.

The witness was excused from the witness stand.

IO: We are going to take a -- you can step down. Unless there is an objection, I would like to break until 1300. I was told that we have a witness by telephone at 1300, so we can get our lunch and come back for that.

TC[Maj Erickson]: Yes, sir.

IO: All right. We are in recess.

The Article 32 investigation recessed at 1127, 13 June 2007.

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