The Article 32 investigation was called to order at 1430, 13 June 2007.

IO: This hearing is called to order. Will you swear in the witness, Major Erickson.

Major Glen Hyatt, U.S. Marine Corps, telephonically was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Major Erickson:

Q. Major Hyatt, could you please state your full name and spell your last for the record?

A. Yes. It's Major Dana Glenn Hyatt, H-Y-A-T-T.

Q. And you are Major Hyatt. Are you currently on active duty in the Marine Corps?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you United States Marine Corps, or United States Marine Corps Reserve.

A. I'm a Marine Corps Reservist who has been on active duty for the past three years or so.

Q. Okay. And what's your current unit?

A. My current unit is [withheld].

Q. Okay. And where are you at night now?

A. Right, now, I am in [withheld].

TC: Okay. Thank you, Major Hyatt.

IO: Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove.

Questions by Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove:

Q. Major Hyatt, this is Lieutenant Colonel Cosgrove. Can you hear me all right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. I am going to ask you a few questions about 19 November.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At that time you were the Civil Affairs Officer for Kilo Company?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were stationed, so to speak, at the firm base in Haditha?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's what we would call Sparta?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall that morning when the IED went off?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was something that created enough noise and chaos that it caught your attention?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were in Sparta?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever go to the IED site that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. In fact, later that evening, your primary responsibility or your task was some sort of confusion or concern about a female detainee and orchestrating her release. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir. That occurred throughout the day, starting at about 1500, and concluding around 2100 that evening.

Q. Was this the same female detainee that was caught with some U.S. currency, Iraqi money, as well as some Jordanian passports?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it was a concern of the Mayor and others that you would not hold a female at the firm base over night?

A. Yes. The Mayor had come up at round 1500 that day and that was the discussion until that evening.

Q. Is it fair to say that your role as days progressed past19 November as the civil affairs offices became largely public relations within the community and payment of SIRP payments?

A. I would say both of those, sir, plus we also had the national elections coming up within the month, and there was a big focus on that, also.

Q. Okay. Well, let me focus, specifically, on the SIRP payments, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. You were approach, were you not, by a lawyer within the community?

A. Yes. Mr. Rasif.

Q. Who was Rasif, Mr. Rasif, the attorney, and who was he representing as far as you understood?

A. He was a member of the families that were killed, sir. They all lived in the same -- I don't know. I'm gonna call it a compound area there, because the houses were all in close proximity. His sister was one of the people who were killed, along with some of his nieces and nephews. So he was representing the family.

Q. Are you familiar with the NCIS investigation to the extent that you know what I am talking about when I say house one, house two, house three, and house four?

A. No, sir. No, sir.

Q. Let me try to focus all of us in. At some point, you got a list of the deceased from that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What NCIS has referred to as house one, if memory serves correctly, there were six deceased within that house. Does that ring a bell?

A. From what I knew, sir, I didn't get a break down of the names in terms of, you know, these six or seven in one house, and then these seven or eight in another house. I was just told between these two houses that there were1 5 civilians killed within those two houses.

Q. Okay. So there was a group of houses and two houses that had 15 civilians killed. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there was a second group, so to speak, of five individuals outside of a white sedan?

A. Right.

Q. And then there was a third group of four Iraqi males inside another house. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this Iraqi attorney by the name of Rasif was representing all of the families of all three of those groups?

A. No, sir. Initially, when we first started talking it was just the 15 in the two houses, which were his family members. The other people, he didn't start asking about them, really, until after the payments were made in last December, December 22nd.

Q. Let me focus you in, for the time being, on the 15 deceased. Those were his family members?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. His demand, primarily, was for payment?

A. He came to us to let us know, and this was the next day. He came to us to let us know that those were his family members that were killed. He was asking why. And in talking with him and letting him know that I would see what I could do, that I would have to wait until I got more information, and to, somehow, try to make things better for him and the family that he had left.

So it wasn't initially for payment. It was to come upto let us know that those were his family members, to try to get some questions answered, and then it wasn't until when I got the confirmation from S-2 and Colonel Chessani gave the go ahead to make the payments that we talked about that money.

Q. Okay. Initially, there was no demand for the group of individuals in the white sedan, or the second group of individuals in that other house?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. Now, ultimately, sometime in the future, the go ahead was given to pay Mr. Rasif for the 15 deceased in houses one and two as we call them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that amount?

A. The total about amount was $38,000.00, sir. And it was $2,500.00 per person, and then there were two children we were also injured, and it was $250.00 for each of those children.

Q. Was that above and beyond the amount that you were originally authorized to give?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were authorized at your level to authorize that full $38,000.00?

A. Yes. And in terms of authorization, I had $15,000.00 authorized to me to make condolence or damage type payments. And because this amount was going to be larger than what I originally was authorized, my SIRP funding got bumped up to $50,000.00 in order to be able to make these payments.

Q. Was there additional money paid for the structures themselves to repair the structures?

A. Yes. One house -- the house that had a lot of fragmentation damage and the burn discharge was $2,500.00 for that house because of the severity of it. That's the maximum amount. And then the other house, I believe I paid -- I don't have the paperwork in front of me. I believe I paid $500.00 for that second house, because it had much less damage to it.

Q. Do you have any knowledge from your time in Iraq or otherwise what the average yearly wage of an Iraqi head of household?

A. In talking with the hospital director one time, I think he had said that he made about $500.00 a month. So that's $6,000.00 a year, basically. I think the average Iraqi probably makes about half of that.

Q. So was the $38,000.00 payment seen as a great amount of money, granted that they are condolence payments, however, still is that a great amount of money relative to their average incomes?

A. Yes, sir; yes. And again, when I actually made the payment Rasif was there, and then there were three cousins, two or three cousins that were also there. And the deal was for that money. And in talking to Rasif and the cousins, this money was for use for, obviously, the other family members. So the idea was for it to be distributed amongst the other family members that remained. But yes, I think that was a large amount.

Q. Now, you were operating at that time under a count of 23 deceased. Does that sound right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the way you recall, there was 15 non-combatants killed in that first group, houses one and two?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there was a second group of eight from the white sedan and the other house?

A. Yes.

Q. The numbers may be off, but again, that eight signifies in your mind those two groups; the white sedan and that second house of all males?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was a determination made at your level or above not to make condolence payments to the families of two those two groupings?

A. Yes, sir. And the reason why, from what I was told from the report, that there was -- that those individuals had weapons on them and had been conducting insurgent activities against Marines that day.

Q. Now, is there a -- well, first of all, that information came from the Battalion level not to make payments?

A. Yes. That's from Battalion, from the S-2, and even from talking with Lieutenant Colonel Chessani and talking with Captain McConnell.

Q. As well as Captain Dinsmore?

A. Yes.

Q. He was the Intelligence Officer?

A. Yes. He was the one who gave me the first break down.

Q. Now, there is no formal application process for an Iraqi civilian or family to ask for payment. Is that true?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. The word would come up through some chain of command that they are seeking payment?

A. Yes that they are seeking payment. There were times when -- as time progressed over there, the Marines themselves, depending on what the situation was, even with the EOF incidents, they would fill out a small chit or paper, give it to the Iraqi person to bring to me for, you know, possible payments. But in terms of these types of casualties and things, there was no formal process for them to request any money or anything.

Q. At some point, you did receive or request formal or informal for the other eight individuals of the white sedan, as well as the males inside that other house?

A. After I made the payment on the 22d of December, Mr.Rasif went -- he was part of the city council. When I would see him at city council meetings, or even afterwards, maybe when we were on patrol on the streets, or whatever, it was a matter of just asking, hey, is there any change for these other people. Is there -- is their status -- for lack of a better word right now, has their status been changed? Are they still, you know -- are you still not able to pay anything for those people? And I would tell him that's correct, and that as far as I knew, no payments would be made to these other families.

Q. Is it your recollection that the payment to the other families occurred on 22 December?

A. Yes.

Q. And the demand for money from other groups did not come until after 22 December?

A. They started, yes.

Q. And it came through that lawyer?

A. Correct.

Q. And the lawyer, Mr. Rasif, was not related to either the family of the taxi, or the white sedan, or that other house?

A. As far as I know, he was not. They just knew that he was part of the city council. They knew that he and I had some sort of, like, a rapport between us. He knew that I was the person who would make the payments. Not that I was the one who made the decision for it, but that I was the one who would make the payments. So they would speak to him.

Q. You made a statement to Army Colonel Watt in an AR15-6investigation. Do you recall that?

A. I remember talking to him.

Q. Well, let me read you a line. You were speaking of the lawyer, Mr. Rasif, that he was persistent in asking for money, and that he continued to ask for money for the five and eight people in the sedan and the other house. Is that a fair and accurate statement?

A. Persistent in that each time I saw him he would ask about it, yes.

Q. And as we talk about four individuals from that other house, that would be $10,000, more or less, that was at stake?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you did not -- you left with Kilo Company in March of 2006?

A. Kilo left about a week or so before I did. I didn't end up leaving country until about April 3d or  4th.

Q. So by April of 2006, you had never paid anything to the survivors of house four or house three, as I am referring to them.

A. That's correct, sir. I didn't know anything different until after I had left, sir.

Q. As fas as you know, those names were run up through the Battalion through S-2, and came back for whatever reason as insurgents?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And again, that was the reasons why no payment was made?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you never -- actually, you did go out to the site on Chestnut, the IED site on 29 November?

A. Yes. It was ten days later.

Q. And you toured what I referred to as houses one and two?

A. Correct.

Q. You never went into houses three or four?

A. No, I did not.

Q. And you did not speak to anyone within house three or house four?

A. No, sir.

Q. There was a system that was created called the key persons identification card?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what was the purpose of that system?

A. The purpose, originally, during my time there, it had come from another area in Iraq there. The Marines had been using a similar system, and maybe even down in Al Quania, I'm not sure. But it was a system of getting these cards for key personal as a way to help identify them and as a way to, not necessarily legitimize who they were, but in a way, to legitimize their job or their position, so whenever Marines went on patrols, or if these people were in a, like, in a waiting line at check point or something. Just as an extra identification of that person, as a way for someone who was looking that the card to know that we know who that person is and that we have eyes on that person.

Q. Okay. These were CAG issued cards?

A. Yes.

Q. You had control over them?

A. Yes.

Q. I read in a statement somewhere that you state that you passed out about 140 of these cards?

A. Yes. Again, without having the book right in front of me, I'd say it was over a hundred, yes.

Q. And you kept a logbook of the cards that you would issue?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I spoke over you.

A. Yes. I kept a logbook, and then I got ready to leave, I'd turn that logbook over to Major Mace, Chris Mace.

Q. Do you recall when you created that logbook?

A. I want to say, either the end of October, or the beginning or mid-November time frame.

Q. And that would be 2005?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you lodged in all of the cards that you issued?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you pass out a few cards, prior to the issuance or the creation of a log book?

A. There were a few cards that were issued out and then, because I had them on the computer at the time, when Iwould see those people again, once we created the logbook, I had them sign off on them.

Q. Okay. So anything that you had passed out prior, you had some other record of?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you went ahead and put that into the logbook?

A. Correct.

Q. So there should be no ID cards that were not kept track of. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. You were given a list of names of the individuals that died on 19 November?

A. Yes, the 15. And Captain Dinsmore on a list that he had given me, there were a few names that were on there, also, from the people who were in the vehicle that had been killed. But for the 15, in particular, were the names that I was given.

Q. Okay. Did you personally check the names against the logbook?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Is it your understanding that they were checked against the logbook up at the Battalion level?

A. In terms of what, sir?

Q. As to whether there were any individuals – deceased individuals that were key persons holding an identification card?

A. I don't remember ever hearing anything about that, sir.

Q. Okay. Did you ever hear anything from the lawyer, Rasif, or anyone else that anyone was a key person?

A. No, I never heard anything about that.

Q. Okay. So the lawyer never stated to you that somebody was a traffic control officer?

A. Not that I remember, sir. And in terms of, excuse me. In terms of any traffic control officers or anything, at that time within the town, we didn't have any police forces at that time. And I do remember the city council meetings that were later on that did discuss the idea of getting traffic control officers into town there. But at that point in November, we didn't have really any heads up on that.

Q. Major Hyatt, give me two seconds, okay?

A. Okay, sir.

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: No further questions from us, sir.

IO: Captain Hur or Major Erickson?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Yes, sir.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Major Erickson:

Q. Hey, Major Hyatt, Major Erickson, how are you?

A. Fine, and you?

Q. I'm doing great. I didn't think I'd have to get into it, but I'm going to have to get into the reporting on that day. You said some numbers in your direct examination with regards to 15 and 8 adding up to 23, and those 8 being the insurgents. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you since learned that reporting was inaccurate?

A. Excuse me?

Q. Have you since learned that reporting was inaccurate?

A. Yes. I have heard that there was 24 not 23 killed that day.

Q. Okay. And how about the number eight, eight enemy dead. Has that number been challenged since that day on 19 November?

A. I think the difference is between the eight or nine. I think there is nine now from what I've heard. The 15 from everything I've heard, there has never been a question about the 15. I think the eight, somehow, was nine.

Q. Exactly. And that would add up to your four in the one house and the five at the taxi cab. Right?

A. Correct?

Q. Okay. And is that where you got your information that15 would receive SIRP payments, versus the nine that wouldn't?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So Captain Dinsmore never came to you and said, hey, I ran these names in my database and they have come back as insurgents. Did he say that you?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

A. From what I knew, they were basing their decisions on insurgents, based on the activity from that day.

Q. And the reporting from that day. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, are you aware that family with the four deceased Iraqi males did ultimately receive SIRP payments?

A. I did hear that when I was out in Pendleton last week.

Q. Okay. Now, with your knowledge with Civil Affairs Group and SIRP payments, if those four Iraqi males had been in the database, do you believe that the SIRP payment would have still been made to them?

A. I do not know. And the only reason I say that, I mean, there are a lot of people who are in the database over there for either actual insurgent activity, or possible insurgent activity. And I think it would have to depend on what their actions were that day.

Q. Okay. Let's go over the lawyer Rasif. You were going back and forth with the defense counsel on the record with regards to him coming up to you and asking for money. And you stated around the 22d of December when you made the $38,000.00 payment for the initial 15 victims that he started bugging you about the remaining eight or nine. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And up until the 22d of December, the unit was very busy with elections. Isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had some town council meetings from the 19th of November until the 22d of December?

A. Yes.

Q. About how may town hall meetings did you have?

A. I think it was a couple. We had the one on the 27th of November, and I know we had at least one more, possibility two. And in the second one, we are dealing with the actual elections and the logistics of how we were going to be able to get all of these people to the voting sites since there was no vehicle traffic going to be allowed that day. And so I would say, definitely two more; one being on the 27th, and then another one. I think I remember that we had one more short meeting just to finalize some of the game plan.

Q. So going to the one on the 27th, weren't all the victims named in a letter from the lawyer Rasif, or from the Mayor of Haditha on that day?

A. I remember getting a list of names. I know they were saying that all 24 were innocent or martyrs. I think they used the word "martyrs" in there. And that none of the 24 had done anything wrong.

Q. So you do not recall having a list of names from that meeting?

A. Of all 24, no, I don't remember that.

Q. Okay. Thank you, Major Hyatt.

A. I know they did give us that list of demands and questions.

TC[Maj Erickson]: No further questions.

IO: Major Hyatt, this is Lieutenant Colonel Ware. I just have a couple of questions for you.

WIT[Maj Hyatt]: Yes, sir.

EXAMINATION BY THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER

Questions by the investigating officer:

Q. Was there a standard amount that would be given to a family for someone who was killed by our activities over there?

A. Yes. $2,500.00, sir.

Q. Now, are you familiar with the value of the American dollar in Iraq back in November of 2005?

A. Roughly $1,500.00 Dinar for one U.S. dollar.

Q. What's the buying power of that? The reason I'm asking is that if you offer me $2,500.00 for one of my family member's death, I would consider that an insult.

A. Right.

Q. So how much is $2,500.00 U.S. dollars worth in Iraq to an Iraqi?

A. Well, like we said before, for some of these people, it's almost a year's pay.

Q. So it could be up to a year's pay for some of these people in this area?

A. Correct.

Q. When you described this attorney asking for payment for the other eight or nine individuals, it sounded kind of crass that he was just coming and bugging you for money. Was it in that manner, or was he also talking about other things in addition to receiving compensation?

A. Like I said, a lot of times it was after, like, a city council meeting, because we would have -- we would hold the meetings in our -- we were living right there at Sparta, and we had a stone house there that we were living in, and that's where we held the city counsel meetings. And it was usually after the city council meeting, once people started filtering back out, he would just ask, hey, Major Hyatt, have you heard anything more about these other people? Are payments going to be made for these other people? That type of thing.

It wasn't, I want money right now for them, and you need to pay us, and that type of thing. It was more of a casual question and has anything changed on their status, are they going to be able to get money, that type of thing.

IO: Okay. Thank you. Any questions in light of mine, counsel?

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: No.

TC[Maj Erickson]: No, sir.

IO: Now, Major Hyatt, are you intending on -- do you have plans to go on any deployments or leave the country anytime soon in the next few months?

WIT[Maj Hyatt]: No, sir.

IO: So to the best of your knowledge, you be available for any further proceedings if you were called to testify?

WIT[Maj Hyatt]: Yes.

IO: All right. Thank you for your testimony today, Major Hyatt. We are going to hang up the phone. Have a good day.

The witness was excused and the connection was terminated.

IO: Do you have another telephonic witness you wanted to call?

TC[Maj Erickson]: Yes, sir. The last witness scheduled for today is Trent Graviss, and we are still trying to get a hold of him on the phone, sir.

IO: All right. Before we take a recess, I just wanted to cover one thing. I received from the counsel for Staff Sergeant Wuterich an invocation of his Article 31 rights.

We discussed this by way of e-mail. Counsel have requested -- defense counsel requested Staff Sergeant Wuterich, Lance Corporal Tatum, and a Sergeant Salinas to testify.

There was indications from counsel that they would evoke their Article 31 rights if called to testify by the defense, and that e-mail indicated that they would accept that and understand that they would be unavailable.

Is that an accurate interpretation of our conversations and your status towards these three?

DC[LtCol Cosgrove]: Yes, sir. And also, I mean, I may have to say this a hundred times in the future, but it's Wuterich.

IO: All right. Wuterich. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to mispronounce that. All right. I will attach this as an investigative exhibit.

Major Erickson, there is no need to go get invocations from those other two Marines unless you want to. All right. Let's take a recess.

The Article 32 investigation recessed at 1500, 13 June 2007.

____________________________

Go to the main page